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6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Brick » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:52 pm

I'm in the market for a new helmet. I've been seeing information on this new 6D technology and I'm very interested.

www.6dhelmets.com



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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby PirateRiderBen » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:46 pm

It looks cool. Certainly very expensive.




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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby LeeDavis » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:24 am

You're protecting a 25 cent head with a $900 helmet! <poke>
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Bob » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:32 am

LeeDavis wrote:You're protecting a 25 cent head with a $900 helmet! <poke>


Now Lee, be nice. I'm sure Brick's head is worth every bit of $900.

Well maybe $875 at least. <olfart>
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby PirateRiderBen » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:12 pm

The suspension tech seems cool
But is it really better than a 4-500$ Shoei?

It's just hard for me to justify that kind of cost for a helmet.


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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Brick » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:21 pm

Well Lee is probably right... But it's the only one I've got!

Shoei's don't fit my $.25 head.

And that is the exact point of this discussion... To discuss. [THUMBS UP SIGN]

I may get to go to this years AIMExpo where I'll be able to "evaluate" all kinds of helmets. And I hope to take a test ride on Yamaha's XSR900. [FLUSHED FACE]


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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby 007 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:10 am

Brick wrote:But it's the only one I've got!



Fixing your head if its broken is usually way more expensive than a $1K helmet. The fix usually isn't a very good one, either. The old adage of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies.

I would be more interested in seeing studies of traumatic brain injury in fields where head injuries are very common. With all of the political interest the NFL has generated over the years for player safety (and the enormous tax shelter limiting their financial obligations), one would think they would be able (required) to generate fantastic data given the regularity of 40mph head collisions (two players each running about 20mph in opposite directions and colliding). Why their helmets can sustain repeated collisions and ours cannot is yet another issue, although I suppose we need to account for higher energy collisions at higher speeds with crumple zones. I'm curious if the suspension technology would obviate the need for crumple zones since it includes impact and sheer forces built in to the design. I do wonder about the length of time before the suspension is no longer protective or individual replacement of parts. Nonetheless, there is a huge need for novelty of all helmet design, and objective helmet protection data that can be extrapolated for motorcycle use in addition to actual motorcycle use data.

Unfortunately, our perspective on helmet purchase is skewed by other more tangible factors, and most people don't see the value in true scientific research (you mean to tell me I should have paid attention in math class?). Alas, the main issues surrounding helmet use and protection seem to be:

1) a helmet that you actually wear to protect your noggin
2) the comfort of said helmet (noise, air flow, weight, fog management)
3) protection (abrasion, blunt impact, fit that allows it to stay in place during incidents)
4) marketing fluff designed more to make money and less for the purpose of 2 and 3 above
5) political and legal obfuscation (ie are DOT and SNELL really that objective, comprehensive, and unbiased?) (are legal requirements to wear helmets really a waste of our time since those of us who lack the judgment to wear a helmet only due to risk of legal consequence are probably deficient in other areas of judgment)
6) anecdotal reports (anybody want to debate oil?)
7) bank account

One of the best developments of more recent times is the inclusion of head shape in the marketing of helmets, which makes narrowing the choices much easier. My rather large forehead has been subjected to intense pressure from ill fitting helmets ever since I started playing football my Freshman year of High School and was essentially told "it will break in after a few days." The reference to "it" was to my forehead, not the helmet made by Riddell. The padding was likely very old and what was once foam had calcified over years of use and felt like wearing a brick directly on my forehead in preparation for crashing my head into others. This was in the relative stone age of helmet technology, where we were just starting to have custom air pockets to improve fit and also likely improve regularity of protection by the time I had advanced to Varsity during my Junior Year of 1997 (since the technology was relatively new and the school had not upgraded all of the helmets to this feature). I realize my experience may be lost on this forum where some of you probably played with leather helmets, no helmets at all, or can at least remember this time. This experience of poor fit was continued when I bought an HJC AC-11 in 2006 that was not intended for my head shape, either, although it did save my life. Finally, I was comfortable in a Shark RSF3 that I bought for about half price on closeout in 2009 while my bank account was still suffering but no longer needed to petition my mom for the money which was akin to extruding blood from a turnip. I was never keen on riding without a helmet (and still have not, ever), but I went for longer rides and was more focused on the road than on my head hurting once I bought a helmet that fit. One quickly sees the correlation of interdependent issues.

Of course, various comfort and protection features escalate quite quickly to degrees of absurdity. We end up in the highly subjective territory of improved protection claims with limited unbiased objective evidence. See any number of race replica helmets and consider the amount of money you are paying for sponsorship of the helmet versus actual design features (I might buy the 6D for this reason alone, since I am not buying gear to support Rossi's paycheck). Then we add anecdotal forum reports of my brother's wife's great uncle survived falling from a 50 foot cliff with no head injury in a $900 Arai, so that is what I wear. No joke: I was contributing to a discussion of frame sliders on VFRD and cautioned the use of anecdotal experience, marketing hype, etc and the very next post included an account of a rider's friend whose bike was flipped when the slider caught an irregularity in the pavement and of course sustained absurd damage that would have never happened without the slider. The ability to choose is easily muddled in unnecessary complexity, while avoiding much needed objective, unbiased complexity.

The value of a purchase generally worsens as price increases. You generally don't get good value for what you pay for in the helmets costing more than $X,XXX MSRP These numbers are totally arbitrary and have no objective evidence so substitute your own numbers. The Icon Airmada (which I have not yet purchased) has been touted as one of those high value helmets on rideapart.com that appears to have nearly all needed features without the cost and similar helmets are clearly the result of "standing on the shoulders of giants" due to trickling down of technology. Truly breakthrough technology such as HUD and integration with bike data, navigation, and entertainment (yikes) are only a few years away. I hope we never have the option to watch a movie on HUD during a ride, but I always wanted an eye in the back of my head to avoid teenagers on cell phones. I recently saw a phone mount that attached to the steering wheel where the phone was blocking view of the gauges. Anyone who purchases this should be required to register on a database similar to the sex offender list so we can all keep track of their whereabouts. Hopefully, future technology will also incorporate HUD notifications when drivers with dangerous driving records are in my vicinity via integrated GPS tracking. Unfortunately, we need evolution of all of this technology as emphasis on skilled driving is lower than Tweeting. I am thankful the 6D has looked at new ways to keep the head safe as this was sorely lacking as well. Even if the 6D does not do well in the high end market, I hope the scientific evidence puts the other manufacturers on notice.

Unfortunately, Skully turned out to be a scam for most investors and BMW is developing a system that will integrate more closely with a bike, but it will probably be useful only on those with Boxer engines designed after 2025, it will be outdated every 3 months, require frequent updates that can only be done while wearing the helmet standing on your head upside down to calibrate the GPS, and the cost of pointless over-engineering will be your favorite genitalia. I would like to see more novel ideas like the 6D, but hope objective and comparable evidence by UNBIASED independent testing is incorporated and the price is justified by actual value rather than marketing fluff. In this case, the 6D appears to have covered their bases with independent testing although I would be curious to see a posting of financial conflicts of interest. As is the case in the medical field, its easy for a pharmaceutical company to show their drug is superior to competitors when all of the testing is done in-house and miraculously all of the patients are cured of their illness and experience no side effects. Seemingly independent studies devolve when money paid directly from the company to the researcher contributes to bias for results of the testing without actual functional improvement. I commend the 6D for moving in a more scientific, objective, and medically oriented direction. Hopefully, 6D changes the trend away from marketing and towards science. Although there is some resemblance of the doctor in the video to Dr. Oz. Remember to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Personally (anecdotal warning), I settled on the Nolan N85 around 2010 and bought the N86 after I accidentally dropped (another reason not to spend $900 on a helmet unless it is designed to take this type of abuse without need for replacement) the N85 and didn't want to buy a whole new integrated bluetooth system when the one I already owned still worked fine and could be moved over to the new helmet. The padding was also interchangeable and also taught me an important lesson that buying new helmet padding gives you a new helmet feel without the cost of a new helmet. I bought an additional N86 that is essentially for track days since I want a helmet that is virtually new for this purpose since, theoretically, all of the parts are best serving their intended purpose as new with progressive decline in function with use. At the very least, I want to pass inspection. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that helmets need to be replaced every 5 years (or whatever) since that objective data is limited and materials continue to advance, but it is easy to incorporate these helmets into my rotation once other helmets take a beating and need to be retired. I'm generally satisfied because the N86 fits my head shape and has decent comfort features for the price. I suppose the DOT certification will protect me, although I have not truly utilized the helmet's impact protection features for this purpose in any accident, although I am thankful for the helmet's abrasion protection. Furthermore, I hope my helmet never comes off during an accident. One has to wonder if Simoncelli would still be alive today had his helmet not come off, and why no one ever discusses the effect his hair may have had in this event. Will they develop helmets in the future to incorporate a mass of hair in the equation? Only time will tell.

Interestingly, after I finished watching the 6D video explanation, I watched a YouTube video about buying bikes with high mileage (because you can't watch just one). Of note, his wrist straps are not secured, he is not wearing a jacket and possibly not wearing other gear as well, and he uses the f-bomb numerous times for what may amount to no apparent reason as he thought the driver behind him may have honked while merging in traffic. He even considers he may have accidentally honked, himself, but still curses the driver behind him anyway. I quit watching the video around this point due to these numerous red flags. Why anyone would make a video explaining some topic while doing a task requiring absolute attention such as riding a motorcycle in traffic is beyond me. He may have made one or two good points, but he lost all credibility when all of those points were noted in the first minute of the video. The fact that he was riding a VFR with 4X,XXX miles didn't even save him. Coming to the same conclusion through blind luck versus extensive logical reasoning does not make one an expert. The point of this is we are constantly bombarded with information in today's world where anyone can film a video in HD and post it on the internet and develop a following, despite a gross lack of actual qualification, which can be extended to helmet manufacturers who do not necessarily receive comprehensive, objective, unbiased evaluation of helmets.

Financial disclosure: I am not paid by Nolan and don't care if you buy a Nolan. I may own stock in Nolan buried deeply in retirement index funds, but that would only be a few pennies.
Qualification disclosure: I am not actually qualified to write this post since I am not involved in the design of helmets or the up to date chemistry of new elastomers despite degrees in Medicine, Chemistry, and Biochemistry, and an internship in Chemical Engineering. Neuropsychiatry is regularly utilized in my practice.

Sorry for the long-winded contribution. <BS> :roll:
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Bob » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:42 am

My brain hurts. <olfart>
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby LeeDavis » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:46 am

given the regularity of 40mph head collisions (two players each running about 20mph in opposite directions and colliding)


A tiny bone to pick: Your statement is a common error. Because the energy is dissipated to the two colliding objects the result is two separate 20mph collisions. IOW, the damage to the two objects will be the same as if each had hit a wall at 20mph individually, not like one of the objects hitting that same wall at 40mph.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Bob » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:06 am

LeeDavis wrote:given the regularity of 40mph head collisions (two players each running about 20mph in opposite directions and colliding)


A tiny bone to pick: Your statement is a common error. Because the energy is dissipated to the two colliding objects the result is two separate 20mph collisions. IOW, the damage to the two objects will be the same as if each had hit a wall at 20mph individually, not like one of the objects hitting that same wall at 40mph.


Not sure I agree with you, not that it matters. <muaha>

But--consider 3 different scenarios:
1) Football player running 20mph butts head with stationary player---stationary player absorbs some of the impact when he is pushed backwards so the running player's effective impact is reduced to a number less than 20mph.

2)Football player running 20mph butts head with stationary player who is standing against a concrete bridge abutment---stationary player receives zero impact (if his helmet holds) and running player receives 20mph impact.

3) Football player running 20mph butts heads with another player running towards him at 20mph. Both receive a 40mph effective impact.

Now I'm probably wrong but thats how it appears to me.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby LeeDavis » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:13 am

Bob wrote:
LeeDavis wrote:given the regularity of 40mph head collisions (two players each running about 20mph in opposite directions and colliding)


3) Football player running 20mph butts heads with another player running towards him at 20mph. Both receive a 40mph impact.


Your creating a total impact of 80mph from two 20mph collisions - that can't happen. Physics (Conservation of Energy) doesn't allow the creation of additional energy.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Bob » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:17 am

LeeDavis wrote:
Bob wrote:
LeeDavis wrote:given the regularity of 40mph head collisions (two players each running about 20mph in opposite directions and colliding)


3) Football player running 20mph butts heads with another player running towards him at 20mph. Both receive a 40mph impact.


Your creating a total impact of 80mph from two 20mph collisions - that can't happen. Physics (Conservation of Energy) doesn't allow the creation of additional energy.


So when 2 cars collide head-on at 60mph, the damage to each is the same as if each hit a solid wall? I guess all the safe driver schools are wrong. Which wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Bob » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:22 am

I see your point re conservation of energy. So the "mass" of each colliding object would then come into play. If a 300 lb lineman collides with a 200lb QB the lineman receives much less of an impact and the QB gets creamed--it would seem.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby LeeDavis » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:00 am

Bob wrote:I see your point re conservation of energy. So the "mass" of each colliding object would then come into play. If a 300 lb lineman collides with a 200lb QB the lineman receives much less of an impact and the QB gets creamed--it would seem.


The force of impact will still be dissipated evenly between the two players but since the QB is probably standing still he'll be knocked backwards (get creamed) and the lineman will continue to move through the point of impact but at a lower velocity. Force = Mass x Velocity
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby 007 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:12 pm

Of course I forget about the law of conservation of energy (Kinetic energy = 0.5m*v^2) while blindly following what I think I heard somewhere (possibly the internet or driving courses). Glad someone was paying attention and I do think they teach it wrong in driving courses now that you mention it. You're not picking at all, it was exactly the point of my post (don't believe stuff you hear).

For instance if a 90 kg player running at 5m/s is tackled by a 140kg player and they are both stopped at the end, how fast was the 140kg running?

0.5*90kg*5m/s^2 =1125 N
0.5*140kg*xm/s^2= 1125 N

If you solve for x, you get about 4m/s (right?).

The reason quarterbacks take most of the punishment is the location of the blows (head, ribs) vs the defender (shoulder) although this is not always the case. The energy experienced by both in the collision is the same. Also, because of the role of mass in the equation, the experience of change in direction (acceleration) is experienced more by the smaller player who slowed down more. This feature of mass explains why you don't want to get hit by a truck or why you don't necessarily need a big engine to have fun on a lightweight motorcycle. Now its coming back to me.

And my head hurts, too.
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Re: 6D Helmet technology

Unread postby Brick » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:12 pm

Plus quarterbacks wear less protection! Duhhh!


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