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Is going to the 30S the answer???

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Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:23 pm

In going over a bunch of posts, I am far from confident that the 30S will solve the problem. Sena's answers to fixing the 20S are pure BS. They say it's the new firmware but it is obvious they did not test that solution and it does not work. The mesh sounds like each unit is becoming a repeater. Sounds like a LOT of signal processing. Maybe the real answer is CARDO.

Yesterday was my first time with four riders using a group intercom. Most of the time the box of rocks stuff was bearable but if it works without the noise with two riders, then Sena's advertising is BS on the 20S and may be on the 30S too.
Now for a couple questions. When we started Brick paired to me first. Then to each of the other two. I did not have my VOX enabled because I assumed we would use our radios. Anyhow, when we were all paired, I heard background noise ALL the time, even when no one was talking. I did not have to say anything to transmit and it sure appeared like we were all on one big party line. In fact I could hear the engines of all the bikes when they accellerated out of turns. Now for the question, when you start group intercomm does that mean you have just turned on the party line and everyone is in a constant state of two way conversation???
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:26 pm

Yes.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:39 pm

After thinking about the "party line" model for group intercom and thinking about my one and only experience with it I came to some conclusions. Blue tooth is just a form of radio. With radio two or more users can not transmit on the same frequency without some fancy circuitry like direct sequence spread spectrum. My guess and that is what it is is that Sena uses some kind of multi tasking channelization. To simplify, when the creator pairs with user one, each has a transmit channel and a receive channel. Each additional user that pairs gets a separate transmit frequency and receive channel. When group intercom is turned on, and saved by the creator transmit and receive is turned on by all. I'm sure there are a bunch of variations to this because if one user drops the whole plan can go to crap, BUT in essence EVERYONE picks up the background noise of all the users in the group. I just wonder if you can set a threshold to transmit, something like VOX does, on each unit.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:40 pm

Bob wrote:Yes.

Are you willing to bet the farm on that? LOL
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:51 pm

Bluetooth IS a radio, using 2 frequencies, one for Xmit and one for receive. Simultaneously.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Brick » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:00 pm

Notes from Norm on the 20S

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/300 ... 3EB65&dl=1

Notes from Norm on the 30K

https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/301 ... 3FAC8&dl=1


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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Brick » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:03 pm

OldButNotDead wrote:In going over a bunch of posts, I am far from confident that the 30S will solve the problem. Sena's answers to fixing the 20S are pure BS. They say it's the new firmware but it is obvious they did not test that solution and it does not work. The mesh sounds like each unit is becoming a repeater. Sounds like a LOT of signal processing. Maybe the real answer is CARDO.

Yesterday was my first time with four riders using a group intercom. Most of the time the box of rocks stuff was bearable but if it works without the noise with two riders, then Sena's advertising is BS on the 20S and may be on the 30S too.
Now for a couple questions. When we started Brick paired to me first. Then to each of the other two. I did not have my VOX enabled because I assumed we would use our radios. Anyhow, when we were all paired, I heard background noise ALL the time, even when no one was talking. I did not have to say anything to transmit and it sure appeared like we were all on one big party line. In fact I could hear the engines of all the bikes when they accellerated out of turns. Now for the question, when you start group intercomm does that mean you have just turned on the party line and everyone is in a constant state of two way conversation???


Actually before I paired with you I had already been paired with Scott and Bob. After you and I paired I had them tap in not pair in.


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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:11 pm

So its my understanding that with the model 30, pairing is a thing of the past. You just turn them on and everyone is instantly connected. I just wonder what surprises Sena doesn't tell you about..... <flip>

I am also skeptical re. the "private" vs "public" modes. In private, how do the individual Sena units know who is considered private and who is public? It would seem you'd still have to identify the "private" members to the units somehow.....how is that done? Is it kinda like....PAIRING!??
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby LeeDavis » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:31 pm

The 30K has a separate button on the top that is used for mesh functions. If you tap the button once your Sena is in public mesh mode and will automatically connect to any other Sena in public mesh mode.

A private mesh is created with one Sena by holding the mesh button for 5 seconds. Any other Sena in range when the private mesh is created and also in public mode will receive a voice prompt to join the private mesh and can accept by tapping the mesh button once.

After private mode invitations another Sena can request to join the private mode mesh by tapping their mesh button twice. The mesh creator will receive a voice prompt for the request to join and can allow by pressing the creator mesh button once.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Good answer. Can it save a particular private group or do you have to re-do it each time? Not that it would be a big problem if it didn't...
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:18 pm

Bob wrote:Bluetooth IS a radio, using 2 frequencies, one for Xmit and one for receive. Simultaneously.

That is exactly what I was saying. BUT it can't be just one xmit freq for all pairs. It has to be one transmit for each unit in the pair. Whether or not you call it pairing, the unit has to catalog the units that are being associated with. Sounds like the 30 scans the environment and catalogs units. Kinda like Wi-Fi if Wi-Fi would automatically connect to all Wi-Fi sources. The more I hear about it, the more hesitant to committing to it.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby LeeDavis » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:25 pm

Bob wrote:Good answer. Can it save a particular private group or do you have to re-do it each time? Not that it would be a big problem if it didn't...


Mesh members are saved the same as pairings.

However, unless there's a Sena rally I don't see much need for the private mode. Actually, it might be kind of cool to talk to other random riders while cruising around. I plan to leave my Sena in open mesh mode.

The best thing to do for questions is download the 30K user guide though except for the addition of mesh it's pretty much the same as the 20S. https://www.sena.com/product/30k/#downloads
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:28 pm

LeeDavis wrote:The best thing to do for questions is download the 30K user guide though except for the addition of mesh it's pretty much the same as the 20S. https://www.sena.com/product/30k/#downloads


You mean actually READ a manual? Why would we do that when we have you? <muaha>
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 am

I was checking the price of buying a single 30K unit. Revzilla was about $290 and Amazon just under $250. What was the more interesting part of the search was reading the reviews. 34% of Amazon respondents rated the 30K as a ONE STAR. That AIN'T good folks. Most had 20s's prior to purchasing the 30k. Most regretted the purchase and thought they would have been better off with the 20s. You have to read the Revzilla reviews to see an accurate picture. Even when the star count was high many still stated the same as on Amazon, they thought the 20s was what they preferred. Amazon had a bunch of reviews and Revzilla only had like 14. You really have to read the reviews because my commentary may not be totally accurate.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:16 am

Rod has a point--heres the first review from Amazon:

Bought the dual kit. First thing I noticed when installing it was how huge this thing is on the side of a helmet. Like, embarrassingly large. Paired to the phone no problem, streamed music...all good. BUT, that’s some pretty basic stuff which literally every headset does now so no big deal there. After that, I struggle to think of a single thing that worked well and reliably. Off the top of my head:

-The app is shockingly slow, making it almost unusable
-Voice commands are useless at highway speed
-The Mesh Intercom feature definitely works but has to be setup every time you turn the thing on, adds a weird digitalized sound to the persons voice versus Bluetooth Intercom, GOBBLES battery life (we can’t get more than 6 hours tops), and unfortunately was the main reason I purchased this model in the first place
-Trying to find the Mesh Intercom button with a gloved hand is like trying to find a Tic-Tac under your seat while driving.
- Etc. Etc. Etc.


If this is all correct, I'd think SENA would be issuing a new improved design.....and having to re-setup the mesh if you turn it off kinda screws the lunch break where you turn them off to the save battery--which this unit might really need more of.

Here-->>

https://www.amazon.com/Sena-Motorcycle- ... merReviews
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:28 am

Bob,
The 30K may wind up being the best thing since buckwheat but right now I would not rush into getting one.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:59 pm

Do any of you know of any documentation on this Sena intercom mesh technology? I know what a mesh network is. Nothing new about that. It's been around for RF, telephones, computers, etc. BT 4.1 is well defined. I did come across a statement that the mesh operates at 2.4 ghz like the BT but I can't find out modulation methods, switching techniques, etc. I am truly surprised at the range claims for these units in any mode.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby LeeDavis » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:59 pm

Sena has to get FCC approval so you should find much of what your looking for in the FCC applications. Go here and scroll down until you see the 30K listings.

https://fccid.io/S7A

Jeff and me actually own 30K's so we'll find out if they work or not. That's all I really want to know and if you wait for us to test we'll tell you too. Then again, don't let that stand in the way of worrying over user feedback that's 6 months and 2 firmware upgrades out of date.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:35 pm

Yeah let us know. The review below (I know its 6 mos. old) touches on music listening issues which I keep reading about. Hopefully you can test that area also. I have no doubt that "mesh" is about 100 times easier than conventional BT, hell anything would be easier. <dope> But its some of the other complaints that could also ruin the experience.....

If you dont plan on buying 2 hold off a while.
so been a 20S user for a few years now and love them.. was so excited to get the 30K mainly for the mesh intercom ability to talk to others without having to sync.. still haven't been able to use that part yet. but I can tell you when blue tooth to another sena 20s you cant multitask such as hear music or gps ect. and when you turn on mesh intercom (not blue tooth) the music seems to have static and it cuts out from time to time.. played with all the settings but annoying to listen to music with all the cut outs. so currently I went back to using two 20S so we can intercom and music.. and I have my 30K in the tank bag also on the Bluetooth link with the 20s and mesh on so that if I am ever near another mesh it should come through.. ?? maybe but anyway if I had it to do over I would wait for sena to work out all the bugs first.. but a solid product just like the 20s it took a bunch of updates before it worked right I'm sure the 30k will be the same.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby Bob » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:44 pm

This would be a deal killer for me--I would not get radar alerts or GPS audio if using in BT mode.

The 30K only does audio multi-tasking in Mesh mode. That means you can't talk to others in Bluetooth mode and hear your music/GPS, etc. This makes it unusable with 20S models. Also, the Bluetooth mode works a couple of times, then the device locks up and has to be restarted. Sena support has been unresponsive.

So unless you need to communicate with a bunch of people that all have 30Ks, you should look elsewhere.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:08 pm

LeeDavis wrote:Sena has to get FCC approval so you should find much of what your looking for in the FCC applications. Go here and scroll down until you see the 30K listings.

https://fccid.io/S7A

Jeff and me actually own 30K's so we'll find out if they work or not. That's all I really want to know and if you wait for us to test we'll tell you too. Then again, don't let that stand in the way of worrying over user feedback that's 6 months and 2 firmware upgrades out of date.

Thanks for the information. Problem is that it isn't really useful. The bulk of the test information is making sure it complies with standards on spurious emmisions, etc, etc. What is useful is covered under the confidentiality letters: schematic, block diagrams but most of all operational description. I find it commendable that you and Jeff are going to do a test; however, but two users deinitely do not seem to be a valid test of a comm system where previous problems began with at least three users. Yes the reviews are dated but when you have 34% of users having issues already and Sena's history of not fixing or ignoring problems rushing off to buy a 30K isn't exactly prudent.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby LeeDavis » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:39 pm

Jeff is going to be riding with a bunch of guys from New Bern who all have 30K's. Is that useful or valid enough for you? I'm done here.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:37 am

For the MSTA members on this forum I recommend reading reply #6 by Norm Kern to the thread RKA Comment on Communications .
I've known Norm for a long time and when he does technical research it is top notch. I'm pretty sure Brick will confirm that assessment as well.
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Re: Is going to the 30S the answer???

Unread postby OldButNotDead » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:20 pm

Talked to two MSTA guys who have been testing the 30K and had 20S's previously. And the answer is---- the 30K AIN'T ready for prime time.
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